Most people don’t think twice about how their payments work until they don’t. Whether it’s a fraud alert freezing your card, a delayed online order, or a transaction that won’t go through, payment operations and fraud prevention take center stage. In this episode, Shao Shroff sits down with Josh Pope, Global Head of Payments Operations and Jenifer Robinson, Global Head of Fraud Prevention, to explore the invisible yet critical world of payments operations. We’ll uncover how these teams work behind the scenes to help transactions flow seamlessly, fraud risks are managed, and businesses stay resilient, even in times of crisis. Why have payment operations become such a top priority for clients? How has the digital age changed expectations for speed, security, and service? And what really happens when things go wrong? Tune in for a fascinating look at the backbone of the payments ecosystem. Sources: 1“Did you know we move nearly $10 trillion globally each day through over 170 countries and 120 currencies at more than 5,000 transactions per second?” (Chairman and CEO Letter to Shareholders) 2 “We've seen this business grow from around 8 billion in sales to over 18 billion in sales over the last decade.” (4Q24 Earnings Press Release) 3 “How do you manage the fine balance between keeping 5,000 transactions per second secure” (J.P. Morgan Payments Processes Record Number of Transactions in Europe) Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed herein are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of J.P. Morgan, its affiliates, or its employees. The information set forth herein has been obtained or derived from sources believed to be reliable. Neither the author nor J.P. Morgan makes any representations or warranties as to the information’s accuracy or completeness. The information contained herein has been provided solely for informational purposes and does not constitute an offer, solicitation, advice or recommendation, to make any investment decisions or purchase any financial instruments, and may not be construed as such.
Most people don’t think twice about how their payments work until they don’t. Whether it’s a fraud alert freezing your card, a delayed online order, or a transaction that won’t go through, payment operations and fraud prevention take center stage.
In this episode, Shao Shroff sits down with Josh Pope, Global Head of Payments Operations and Jenifer Robinson, Global Head of Fraud Prevention, to explore the invisible yet critical world of payments operations. We’ll uncover how these teams work behind the scenes to help transactions flow seamlessly, fraud risks are managed, and businesses stay resilient, even in times of crisis.
Why have payment operations become such a top priority for clients? How has the digital age changed expectations for speed, security, and service? And what really happens when things go wrong? Tune in for a fascinating look at the backbone of the payments ecosystem.
Sources:
1“Did you know we move nearly $10 trillion globally each day through over 170 countries and 120 currencies at more than 5,000 transactions per second?” (Chairman and CEO Letter to Shareholders)
2 “We've seen this business grow from around 8 billion in sales to over 18 billion in sales over the last decade.” (4Q24 Earnings Press Release)
3 “How do you manage the fine balance between keeping 5,000 transactions per second secure” (J.P. Morgan Payments Processes Record Number of Transactions in Europe)
Disclaimer:
The views and opinions expressed herein are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of J.P. Morgan, its affiliates, or its employees. The information set forth herein has been obtained or derived from sources believed to be reliable. Neither the author nor J.P. Morgan makes any representations or warranties as to the information’s accuracy or completeness. The information contained herein has been provided solely for informational purposes and does not constitute an offer, solicitation, advice or recommendation, to make any investment decisions or purchase any financial instruments, and may not be construed as such.
Narrator (00:02):
Welcome to Pay It Forward: A Podcast by J.P. Morgan Payments for J.P. Morgan Payments, get to know our business and gain a better understanding of where we sit at the intersection of technology and finance. Did you know we move nearly $10 trillion globally each day through over 170 countries and 120 currencies at more than 5,000 transactions per second?1 Join us as we take you inside the stories, technology and people that make it all happen.
Shao Shroff (00:38):
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Pay It Forward Podcast by J.P. Morgan Payments for J.P. Morgan Payments. My name is Shao Shroff. I’m head of industrials chemicals and materials coverage in North America within our large corporate payment sales business. And today we're pulling back the curtain on the often unseen world of payment operations and fraud prevention. Two areas that most people don't often think about until they're personally affected. Joining me today are two leaders focused on operational excellence and an unwavering commitment to safeguarding our clients. Josh Pope, global head of Operations for J.P. Morgan Payments and Jenifer Robinson, our global head of Fraud Prevention and Sanction Screening for J.P. Morgan Payments.
(01:13):
Josh, Jenifer, thank you for joining me and allowing me to live out my dreams of becoming a podcast host.
Josh Pope (01:20):
Thanks, Shao. I appreciate being here and great to do the podcast and I'm glad we could make some of your dreams come true.
Josh Pope(01:27):
I'm Josh Pope, managing director at JPMorgan Chase, global head of payment operations. I've been at the bank for 23 years. It's been a great career and a fantastic ride and privilege to work with people like yourself and Shao and Jenifer. My day-to-day responsibilities are to manage 9,000 people spread across the globe, overseeing functions such as cash operations, merchant operations, trade and check processing in addition to a number of utilities that support those four functions such as sanctions and fraud prevention. Our job at the end of the day is to process payments seamlessly from a to Z. The key components of our job are to ensure that we deliver stability, scalability, security, and resiliency. And I have the privilege every day to work with partners like Jenifer who I've worked with for 15 years and still enjoy working with her even though she's a New York Giants fan and I'm a New England Patriots fan.
Jenifer Robinson (02:31):
I'm Jenifer Robinson, the global lead for both fraud operations and sanctions operations within J.P. Morgan Payments business. So I think you said something key in your opening statement that people often don't think about fraud until it happens. We're hoping to shift that narrative with some of the conversations that we'll have. Thanks for having us.
Shao Shroff (02:54):
So I've got to kick this off with a quick story from my very early days at the bank. Back when I was a brand analyst in the sales organization, one of the very first client facing tasks I got probably in the first couple of weeks was a fraud prevention campaign led by none other than Josh. The campaign was simple, but it was quite serious. We had to call all of our clients and deliver a message around risk mitigants, payment controls and educational courses that the bank offers. And as a 20 something year old analyst, I was thinking, okay, this feels a little dramatic. So to be honest, I didn't really put all of my effort into the project.
(03:27):
But then week two into the campaign, I get a call from Josh, a senior managing director calling me directly at my desk back when we had desk phones asking me why I haven't made more progress on my call list and reiterating that the threat was real. And Josh, you called me a few times more after that, I don't know if you remember this. But that made a huge impression on me. It wasn't just a campaign, it felt like a mission, and it taught me very early on how deeply we care about protecting our clients and how seriously our leadership takes that responsibility.
Josh Pope (03:57):
Thanks, Shao. That story you tell, it doesn't sound like me. Maybe it's a deep fake or something. Anyways, I'm happy to be here and excited to get started.
Shao Shroff (04:05):
Well, thank you both so much for joining us. Josh, you mentioned 9,000 people. I have 15 people on my team and I find it very hard to do year-end reviews. It takes a lot of time to sort of think through all the careers and how it can be the best leader. How do you do it with 9,000 people in your workforce?
Josh Pope (04:20):
Yeah, so managing 9,000 people seems sometimes and sounds more difficult than it is. I know this is a little bit cliche-ish if you will, but hire people better than you. Make sure that they challenge you. Try to break down hierarchy and bureaucracy at the table so everybody has an open voice and also make sure that you don't hire a bunch of mini-mes. Make sure that you get people around the table that have a different look and feel, maybe come from a different part of the world, have had different past experiences than you, so you get the right thought leadership around the table. And if you get your table right and everybody gets their tables mostly right below that, then you can run a very successful organization.
You do need to roll up your sleeves. You do need to challenge your staff. You do need to travel the globe and see what's happening on the assembly floor because I do believe that's where you learn the most and where you get respect and the notion that you do care for the people that are making you and the company successful every day.
Shao Shroff (05:22):
Josh, just building on your themes of scale and security, fraud prevention and payment controls are crucial, yet they're often overlooked as we mentioned before. With the rapid growth in the payments industry and specifically here at J.P. Morgan, we've seen this business grow from around 8 billion in sales to over 18 billion in sales over the last decade.2 We've seen new payment rails, new countries unlocked, integrated partnerships with ERPs and FinTechs, and we're looking at programmable blockchain solutions, moving funds 24/7 and dealing with AI and machine learning. So with all of this rapid innovation, there's got to be new attack vectors that are constantly emerging. How do all these changes reshape the landscape of fraud and how are we adapting? What's the greatest threats that you see today?
Josh Pope (06:04):
Yeah. Fantastic question, Shao. So first and foremost, payments is cool. It's an awesome space to be in. It's growing. Whether you're at J.P. Morgan or a competitor or at a FinTech, it is just absolutely exploding. And when you think about just a handful of years ago, payments was in the wholesale banking space, 24 by five and a half days a week. It is genuinely 24/7, 365. The wholesale space is now very reflective of the consumer space, where you expect it now. You want the money moved after you've eaten at a restaurant and you need to pay the person who might've paid the bill, you can do that within nanoseconds. In the wholesale banking space that's happening. You have real-time payments. It's not just wires and ACH anymore, you have wallets. There's all different kind of vehicles. And again, they're 24/7, 365.
(06:59):
So it's an exciting ecosystem to be in, but at the same time, it makes it challenged from a fraud prevention perspective because the money is moving that much faster from point A to Z. And so you got to be on top of your game. You have to make sure both from the bank's and the client's perspective to look ahead and to make sure that we have multi-layer of controls and the clients have multi-layer of controls and that they're happening all the time. But again, plan upfront, think about doomsday, what is it that the adversary is after? What are the different tactics? So we can help minimize and preferably eliminate the risk that impacts us, JPMorgan Chase, as well as our clients every day, every hour, every minute, every second… unfortunately.
Shao Shroff (07:45):
Thanks for that, Josh. Appreciate it, Jenifer. Knowing and understanding the threats and staying on top of emerging trends is certainly half the battle. How do you manage the fine balance between keeping 5,000 transactions per second secure and making sure our customers have a seamless experience?3
Jenifer Robinson (08:01):
So the financial sector and clients face growing threats from sophisticated fraud techniques. That is true across the board, and it continues to evolve. The ability to create the right level of friction within the payment flow becomes increasingly challenging to balance for both us and for our clients. What we have done over the years is leverage AI and ML to better understand payment patterns to remove the friction that we would create in the environment to try and detect fraud while also creating more advanced methods using machine learning for fraud detection. And that has helped us tease out probability of fraud, which ultimately we can have those discussions with our clients, whether it's internal or external, to try and get to a position where validation is done appropriately. However, none of this works effectively without the continued collaboration with our clients.
Shao Shroff (09:06):
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing that. Josh, when we think about payment, security and convenience, they're especially critical during crises. Recently we faced natural disasters like earthquakes, wildfires, and the hurricanes in Florida last year where you both live. I know this is a topic our clients are always eager to learn more about and we get a flavour from it from the tech side in a previous episode with Michael Ozenhoff. But how does resilience play a role in preventing fraud and maintaining payment continuity during such unexpected events, including the intense global trade event we're currently navigating through now?
Josh Pope (09:41):
Resiliency is front and centre to everything we do at JPMorgan Chase and particularly in payment operations. So we do not take lightly the fact that we move $10 trillion a day or process 11 million checks each month for the 400 million daily transactions that we do in merchant services. And we know the world will still need to continue even if a hurricane takes out one of our core 23 hubs. And so our people are our number one asset and we recognize that, our clients recognize that, and we want to make sure that first and foremost, we protect our people and their families and their loved ones. So what we do is we make sure that we transfer our work and we are very diligent in our architecture to make sure that we are redundant and sometimes triplicated, if you will, in various parts of the world.
(10:32):
So as we currently speak, in the US hour space, we are actually running US dollars on the same types of screens and the same type of staff in multiple locations across the world. And that's important because if we need to take out a site, you would have two sites running. And so we're always looking to make sure that we run hot-hot if you will, which is both sites running and sometimes hot-hot-hot, which is three sites running simultaneously.
(11:03):
And we don't just wait for the event to happen. We actually run different resiliency simulations a year. And so when it comes to things like hurricanes or typhoons or monsoons or fires or geopolitical matters, we are able to operate seamlessly for our clients. And I would say clients are incredibly thankful, appreciative, and sensitive when we do what we do during a hard event. And it's amazing to see their care and reach out to make sure that the people are cared for, that their well-being is in good shape. But they're also amazed by how we pivot and service their clients and their businesses, again, very seamlessly, even in times of disaster. You may have some degradation of service and that's okay, that's expected, but we're there to deliver and make sure that we're architected the right way.
Jenifer Robinson (12:05):
The other thing too, when we think about natural disasters or geopolitical events, it's not only an impact to us within the bank right or within our firm. The clients are also impacted oftentimes as well because they often sit in the same locations that we do when there's a natural disaster. So our ability to really react to that and support the clients through those events is really monumental to how we think about clients and the experience they need to have with us as an organization.
(12:33):
Josh talked a few about natural disasters, from hurricanes, et cetera. We saw that during COVID and post-COVID, there was a spike in fraud activity across the board, right? So these types of events simply create opportunities for fraudsters. It requires us and our clients to have increased vigilance and increased security awareness. Having proactive conversations and event-driven playbooks, testing through scenarios to help prepare for the unexpected activities is vital to business continuity, whether it's for us here at the firm or for our clients. Those type of event-driven type playbooks are vitally important to make sure that business can continue to function.
Josh Pope (13:22):
I think it's a great point, Jenifer. And it's a good point for our employees and our clients out there that you can never let your guard down, and particularly around holidays and times of disaster or instability, is when adversaries will further penetrate different companies or consumers, small businesses, large corporates, financial institutions, et cetera. So again, you can never let your guard down but know those are ideal times that people in vulnerable states may let their guard down because of other things going on, and the adversaries have no lines of where they will drop their behaviour.
Shao Shroff (14:00):
It's really been amazing to see how your organization support our clients through all of these, especially in the last five years, we've seen so much with COVID and the various different disasters we talked about. So this has been a super insightful conversation for me, I know our colleagues and clients will certainly benefit from the content.
(14:17):
There's one key takeaway you want listeners to remember about payment operations and fraud prevention. What would it be, Josh?
Josh Pope (14:24):
Yeah. J.P. Morgan is relentlessly focused on stability, security, scalability, and resiliency, and payment operations really is a great symbol of that. We're here to move a significant amount of transactions every day, which obviously equals a tremendous amount of value. But we care, we have the right diligence, we're applying emerging technology such as artificial intelligence and machine learning solutions along with other technology solutions to create a very seamless environment for our clients. Small businesses, middle markets, large corporates, financial institutions, that new married couple buying a house, whatever it might be, we are genuinely here to deliver and, again, make your dreams happen.
Jenifer Robinson (15:13):
I'll just add on from my perspective, fraud has evolved into a very sophisticated business. It is no longer a statement of if it's rather a statement starting with when this occurs, am I prepared to react? Proactive measures and education are crucial to ensure businesses are prepared to prevent and swiftly react to these incidents. Knowing who to engage, when to engage and how quickly you engage becomes vitally important when there is an event related to fraud.
Shao Shroff (15:48):
Thank you so much for your time. It's clear to me today, 15 years after I was an analyst here at J.P. Morgan, that the strength of our operations division is clearly a value proposition and differentiator for us in the market. Thank you so much for joining us, and thanks to our listeners. Hopefully this was useful. Stay tuned for more behind the scenes insights on Pay It Forward: A Podcast by J.P. Morgan Payments.
Josh Pope (16:11):
Thanks Shao for having us. Great time.
Jenifer Robinson (16:13):
Thanks for having us. I appreciate the conversation.
Narrator (16:17):
Thank you for tuning in to Pay It Forward: A Podcast by J.P. Morgan Payments for J.P. Morgan Payments. Stay up to date on the latest stories, technology and people powering payments by subscribing on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favourite podcast platform. Keep pushing boundaries and we'll keep moving the payments world forward one transaction at a time.
Sources:
1 “Did you know we move nearly $10 trillion globally each day through over 170 countries and 120 currencies at more than 5,000 transactions per second?” (Chairman and CEO Letter to Shareholders)
2 “We've seen this business grow from around 8 billion in sales to over 18 billion in sales over the last decade.” (4Q24 Earnings Press Release)
3“How do you manage the fine balance between keeping 5,000 transactions per second secure” (J.P. Morgan Payments Processes Record Number of Transactions in Europe)